Giulia: Welcome to the last episode of the trust podcast. The topic for this last episode is the urban transition. We always hear about the need to accelerate urban transition for a carbon-free world. Where Akita changes, ensuring that investments can transform the city toward carbon neutrality but not reinforce the status quo. Why are cities so important in the global effort to become carbon nature. Of course, we know that cities match a possible variety of reasons, including climate change because they are responsible for 70% of the robot carbon dioxide emission with transports, buildings, energy waste management. What needs to be done; national, regional, local governments and organizations, communities, academic institutions, the private sector, and all relevant stakeholders must work together to create sustainable carbon natural inclusive cities and towns. We will talk today with two experts on this topic, Paula Antunes, she is a full-time professor at Nova school of technology Lisbon, and she was also the head of the department and director of Cense. (The Center for environmental and sustainability research). Her research focuses on mapping and assessment of ecosystem services, circular economy models, sustainability assessments, participatory design support tools, and environmental policy. She also lately wrote an article on Co-creating sustainability performance assessments for the public sector. I kindly ask Paula to begin the dialogue on urban transition, starting maybe from the photo description you heard and also saw. What do you feel about urban transition looking at this picture?

Paula: Good morning Giulia, thank you for the invitation to join this podcast and for the initiative of this project which is quite interesting. I also like to say hello to Olivia, my partner in this podcast. It's a pleasure to collaborate with her again. About the picture, I don't know my first emotion in this picture. Well, I don't want to live in such a place, so we look at that, and that's not well. It shows that we need urban transition. So, we need to shape, we look at those buildings, and we know that are not a lot of people that live in those buildings. Perhaps you think that that's not how you want to live, although there is some green space and sort of like a watercourse and things like that you understand that there's no room for interaction among people, there is no room for contact with others with nature for a normal life. My first impression of that picture is that it really shows that we need another transition. We need the number transition of only for carbon but for all the other reasons that perhaps we can expand later, but there is a need for an urban transition. That's my first thought about that.


Giulia: Thank you, Paula. You also gave me the opportunity to introduce Olivia Bina, the other expert on today's topic. She's a principal researcher at the Institute of social science at the University of Lisbon, a fellow of the World Academy of art and science, and an adjunct assistant professor at the geography and resource management department at the Chinese University of Hongkong. She's now exploring the notion of progress, future, and sustainability through a critical analysis of the paranormal growth of the changing human-nature relationships and ideas of nature-based transformation and operation debates on happiness and well-being in his connections project, for instance. She has also been a convener of the urban transition up in the ICS. So Olivia, may I ask you what do you feel about this picture on urban transitions.

Olivia: Yes, thank you, Giulia, for the invitation and the challenge to join this conversation. We were just talking with Paula, and it's wonderful to meet after 2016. I hope we can also reconnect in practice in the future. So, this is a good platform to do that. Starting with the photo, I love listening to Paula's take because it made me immediately realize this underlying theme, I think. That is also very relevant to the whole transition/transformation debate, which is our subjectivity, and it has very deep relevance in the way we see and frame the problem, and then obviously the solutions that we look at that we seek those problems. Because basically, I looked at the photo, and the first thing I saw was nature rather than the towers. That was interesting because it connected to some experience we had in the past about looking at futures and imagined futures. So my first reaction was, "Is this a futuristic image of nature recovering its presence into what looks like in the background? very dense and uninhabitable urbanization." So, it's almost the reverse impression that, of course, that's because I've done that kind of research, so I am prone to look at images thinking about futures both dystopian and utopian. I guess in terms of emotions, it is an ambiguous emotion. Either this image makes me think there is hope because nature could be thriving (in that image, it's not clear the river could be polluted or not) to recover its energy and power or the revers so it could be these towers encroaching and destroying the surrounding green areas and the ecological systems that they represent.

Giulia:Thank you. You both mentioned nature as important in this picture, in your reaction. Do you think nature can play a role in this transition? And how? Paula, you started mentioning something about "why there are discourses on the role of cities..." can nature be something inside that can accelerate this transition? If we need to accelerate.

Paula: Well, definitely I think so, yes. I think nature is fundamental; more and more, we realize that cities are just not concrete and roads. Nature plays a very important part because as we have all the research in ecosystem services in urban ecosystem services, there are a lot of benefits that we take with contact with nature. In the cities, we can benefit from nature-based solutions for water-retaining, water pollution, water cycles, and regulation of water flows, which is always a problem. Water is always a problem for urban planners. If we have these natural-based solutions, water can be a solution and not a problem for urban planners. So, all our benefits in terms of well-being, recreation, opportunities to reconnect with nature; because I think one of the problems in people living in urban areas is this disconnection with nature. I think it's very relevant that we reconnect with nature with our food systems with water, so I think nature is fundamental for these urban transitions, at least the way I see urban transitions.


Giulia: Nature-based solutions are now told to be a critical way to prove climate adaptation, support climate mitigation, and create space for biodiversity in cities. But you also highlighted an important role of nature in the city, reconnection with the human. Maybe Olivia can talk more about this from her research on the ongoing project "connects us".


Olivia: Yes, thank you Giulia. So, as Paula just explained, nature and the city become a prominent theme in thinking about the future of cities, as I see it. They're in relation to these major challenges and persistent crises. Yes, the ecosystem services arena, the nature-based solutions reframing and adaptation of those original concepts, policies are now, I would say in fashion. With the Cop 26, the latest climate change global meeting reiterated and raised the profile of nature-based solutions even further. I agree with Paula that it is not only about reducing carbon emissions or addressing the range of the climate change problems in the cities; it's wider than that. My interest in picking up on world relationships is to think of important urban spaces because they represent economically, ecologically, and socially such an important section of humanities experience on this planet. So given their importance in relationships, I would like to see the conversation broadened in terms of "how we relate to each other in the cities, how do we understand ourselves, how do we relate to each other, and then to the wider experience of life or nature." Trying to avoid reifying and reproducing this very western and narrow part of western understanding of how we relate to nature and therefore seeing ourselves as separate. It's a big leap for our culture, but I think it's an important leap, and there is much we can draw both from western traditions that are less mainstream and other traditions. I think that would help us think of the problems differently and then look for solutions in different ways, including nature-based solutions.

Giulia: Thank you, Olivia. That's interesting. In the episodes of Trust podcasts, I always try to reflect on the role of individuals. Because, of course, the truth makes some people uncomfortable. Speaking about our role in all of that can be a source of despair and fear. Sometimes it's really difficult to think where to begin, but at the same time, we can also be part of the solution acknowledging that we also benefit from this system of exploitation. We could be doing more to enact the change. In this respect, I would like to ask you both, since you're teachers at universities, what kind of new education the university system can accelerate this transition? Enduring on the factors that now separate us from nature in the westernized way that Olivia highlighted. Leveraging the systemic view, following Olivia's latest research work, do you want to go first?

Olivia: Sure. The role of education of our university courses in this matter is essential. I would say still problematic in a way, as Giulia probably knows, and Paola, I can't remember if we crossed paths in that period. But I've had the pleasure of chairing a four-year action on interdisciplinary-transdisciplinary knowledge funded by the European Union, specifically on the issue of research in urban matters. We sort of came to a conclusion after four years and many many reflections from 32 different countries/perspectives. Academia has been a large extent as much part of the solution as part of the problem. Especially in its persistent maintenance of what we've generally called siloed knowledge production and strong disciplinary boundaries. Whilst we all acknowledge that there is a lot of recognition at least on paper of the value and indeed the necessity of interdisciplinary knowledge, let alone transdisciplinary knowledge by which pleased that we've tended to refer to SD then the Co-production of knowledge with other than academic partners and actors. These ways of producing knowledge are still not common enough. In the urban sector, a little bit like sustainable development in the sustainability arena of knowledge. Which Paula obviously knows very much about because it's in her package. But these two areas, urbanization, urban studies, sustainability, sustainable development, are quintessentially interdisciplinary. We are yet to see structures, institutions, courses; that is truly reflective of this "conditio sequanon" on this essential base starting point. So, I am a little bit concerned about the resistance and the many obstacles that persist in this kind of opening up of boundaries and creating connectivity. - Paula was talking about connectedness at the beginning of this conversation.- It's a crucial word, and it applies as much to the way we know as to the way we understand problems and solutions.

Giulia: Thank you, Olivia. And I guess your urban transition hub maybe be a way to go forward in this respect. There could be little intervention that can shock the system and be from outside maybe the laboratories to start talking about another connectivity to the problems and maybe feel part of the solution not only of the problems.

Olivia: Yes, I mean very briefly. Yes, it was certainly conceived as such an attempt to break down some boundaries, even within our own institution. These boundaries are not about the simplistic division between circles, for example, sciences, the natural sciences, the social sciences, or the humanities. They are within the discipline as well and within that the broad categories, so there's a long way to go, but that's a small attempt, yes.

Giulia: Well, in this podcast, we're also trying to give examples to connect oasis and sparks of hope. People are doing something different in the institution, the people that are participating in the Trust podcast. At the end of each episode, people can find all the resources we mentioned on the website. So, feel free to point out any references that can be useful for further thoughts. Paula, what about your thoughts on that?

Paula: Thinking about education and the role of education, of course, I believe that otherwise, I wouldn't be a teacher if I wasn't believing that education and change it so matter responsibility people being aware of their responsibility and ethics. I think education has a major role, but I think that our education system is also to be disconnected. We were talking about this connection and disconnection. For many reasons, I think our education system has been more disconnected from the real world from nature and from other people. Of course, covid does not help with that, but even before, I think we were getting more and more; people read everything, students read everything on the Internet, have these videos, and have access to everything online. And then they do not learn in our education, and it does not connect students with the real world. So, I think that's one major change that I would like to do in our education system is to have this kind of reconnection to have students working on real-life projects. For instance, if you're talking about the food system, I think it's a central part of this urban transition. Perhaps it's not so much talked about, but this reconnection with food, growing your own food in urban farms they have a very important role for must not only reconnecting us with nature and ecosystem services but also socially and economically. But going back to education, I think that engaging students in project building with food production and distribution and all the food systems. That could foster what Olivia was talking about this idea of transdisciplinary knowledge integrating different types of knowledge and the need for this interdisciplinarity and transdisciplinary research to promote sustainability in urban transitions and others. From my own experience trying to be like a small farmer, I think this is a very good stage for developing this transdisciplinary research and acknowledging the value of local knowledge. I've learned a lot from other people who know much more about growing tomatoes than myself. So, we have this opportunity, this humbleness regarding nature and other people and other sources of knowledge. And it's I think what is important that what is missing in our education system is the connection between the fields. We talk about food systems, but we can also talk about water. How you manage or river or stream and have some experience in re-naturalizing ecosystems and ecosystem restoration, so engaging in such projects on the ground I think it can be a very important role. I think it's something that we should go back to doing in our education. I don't know if this makes sense to you.

Giulia: Absolutely, I mean, a better understanding of human-nature connection can provide for sure a powerful window into how to drive sustainable behavior for urban transition as food, water, mobility, anything. Everything is connected. It's easy to address the challenge of connecting humanity with nature when you put your hands on scholarships that pursue what you said. I mean crossword division or methods and approaches, as Olivia also highlighted in the intrepid project, extend research beyond individuals and local scales and western societies. I guess it increases guidance as we are educators for sustainability transformation and transition. I thank you both for this insightful talk. Do you want to have a word to wrap up this half-hour together, like a conclusive remark around just a word to say goodbye?

Olivia: Yes, Giulia. I'd love to pick up on a couple of things which I'd like to leave here. Ethics. In the teaching process and as a responsibility, I think it is truly something we should talk more about. It's important in terms of being very authentic with our students and embracing the issue of normativity, for example, which is such a difficult conversation to be hand still within academia, but as Dirk Lurbeck, a famous scholar of transition, famously said, if you are engaged with anything to do with sustainability you have to embrace a certain normative stance in terms of justice in terms of the importance of a thriving natural world. These issues need to be flagged, embraced, and discussed more directly. Lastly, I'd like to say that in terms of the human-nature relationships in cities. While cities are such constructs, they are also beautiful places where humans and nature, if we want to keep that conversation between two parts, can be built in rediscovered and can thrive? I want to believe that we can design beautiful cities because humanity will continue to live in these urbanized areas. It is up to us to have the building imaginaries and then the technologies and the solutions for such cities to be beautiful for all forms of life, to humans and all other species different than humans.

Giulia: Thank you, Olivia. Because you both mentioned words that are not always connected with the urban transition, you mentioned the word "ethic." Paula mentioned the word "humbleness." Adding motivation, action, and outcome. We can formulate the stewardship towards the environment, and the concept of still worship can offer a platform for real collaboration and dialogue between actors, even with a different perspective on the human-nature relationship on a truly effective transition. So thank you for giving us these keywords. Paula, do you want to add your closing words or remarks?

Paula: Well, yeah, just to say that we have been in this conversation. And I, myself, always focus very much on this human-nature relationship. But I think that human-human relationships are also very important. We haven't addressed this, and well, we could talk another half an hour about the human-human relations, and the role of things like sharing economy, local currencies, local news, new ways of organizing our life, and life with others in the cities. But if there's something important as human-nature relations are human-human relations in urban systems, that could be another topic.

Giulia: This is perfect because this is the last episode, but what you just said links with the first episode closing the loop, which was about human-human relationships and care. The logical care, knowledge, and agency to work the stewardship. I invited Antje that is working in CENSE, your same institution, Paula. I love the idea that this could be the starting point starting from our authenticity, as Olivia said, building a new narrative for urban transition. So, thank you very much both. Thank you for being here. It's been a pleasure.