Giulia: Welcome, everybody! The topic of today is sustainability education and transformative learning. I will now introduce the speakers of today: Manta and Esperide from the Damanhur community, the laboratory of the future of humankind. It is a community founded in 1975. In 2005 Damanhur received recognition from the United Nations Global Forum on the human testament as the model of a sustainable society. Manta and Esperide will be talking about their experiences there, with Antje Disterheft from CENSE, in Lisbon. Antje is an enthusiastic researcher, and she’s exploring transformative processes that could support keeping the human nature system in balance. So, I welcome Antje, Manta, and Esperide today, and I thank them for being here. And I will ask you, maybe first Antje and then Manta and Esperide: what emotion does this picture provoke in you? Maybe Antje, you can start sharing if you want.

Antje: Okay, yes, thank you very much, Giulia, and thank you for the invitation to be here with you. So, regarding the emotions that this picture evokes in me, there are 2 or 3 types of emotions. First of all, due to the current situation of the pandemic and being in a lockdown for more than 1 and a half months, this picture creates also a belonging more to the outside than it is unfortunately currently possible. So, belonging to be in nature and be together in nature and not just in our small family circle but with more people. The other emotion also creates something like touching the ground sitting on the floor, connecting with the earth, and just being proud of it. And at the same time, there is also the kind of hope. Due to the current situation, we might be pushed to use more outer spaces for learning, which is important for our children. And to learn in and with nature. So, maybe there is also this opportunity to explore new approaches and new places for our learning. That’s so far from my side, thank you.

Giulia: Thank you Antje. Esperide and Manta what do you say?

Esperide: So, I found, I also like to reply to what Antje was saying because I found it interesting and as she was speaking, I was thinking how lucky in a sense we are, by having created a community where we have our land, and we have our forest, and our school is actually based on the model of the, you know, the school in nature. Because even if we have been experiencing a period of lockdown, we have much more freedom to be outdoors. Our kids have been able not to be distracted entirely in their activities outdoors. And so, school and nature are very intertwined, and by having the possibility of managing our school, we’ve been more flexible. Looking at the picture, I also think of the context, so of course, looking at it today makes me believe that negative way is the fact that these children not only are not going to school but they are also deprived of the ability to have a sensory experience of touching each other, playing with each other, which is probably at their age even more important than the schooling per se. It is really how we create a social self, how we define ourselves in relationship with others. So that’s looking at it today, makes me wonder what it’s going to be in the future for these children, how we’re going to be able to make up for this time they’re losing when they should be, you know, playing with each other, touching each other, not having any barriers. So that’s an interesting question to ask ourselves. And on a positive note, I love in the picture the fact that the teacher is showing flowers. And for me, that symbolizes the fact that, in any case, the power of imagination and creativity is greater than anything we can go through. And if we work together, we continue to nourish that, and we could see life, flowers growing even in a situation when we feel we are a little bit imprisoned.

Manta: And I’m Manta, and I agree with Esperide thinking about these children, missing this community contact, and this is the sad part. On the other hand, I think that what is happening now, is increasing also the hope that, in the future, we can get back to this type of moment and underline and make us feel through the losing something, how important it is. So how important it is to be in connection with nature, to have the possibility to meet each other, and in this sense, these can be a representation of what we can aim, as soon as possible to be back with more awareness on how important this type of moments is for everybody.

Esperide: If I may add, I was saying that we are lucky, having community and having land. I didn’t mean to say, in a way, just us, but I think what is important in these times, more and more people around the world realize how important it is to create stronger bonds, to create communities in every possible way so that we are actually freer. Because only together we can be free.

Giulia: Thank you, Esperide, for the nice, positive attitude towards the future. And actually, I’m even more willing to join and come and meet you in person, when the conditions allow. And you both tasks upon an issue that is very oppressing now and important. That is the disconnection between the transformative learning that should be the central goal of our educational institution, but the actual tractor that is still full of inertia than the old teaching styles, and maybe it’s just a lack of censorship. So, I will ask you some questions about that central disruption. Feel free to put yourself in dialogue with each other and the answer. So, the question is, how are we given support to these disruptions of the existing education system and the transformative learning that should be the aim of every learning journey? And how, for instance, can we deal with the consequence of this disruption? And what is the worse we have to respect if we don’t act now, and what should we affect? Please feel free to jump in the answer when you feel called to.

Esperide: These are complex questions and not easy to reply to, so maybe we can just build these paintings together as we go and add stokes here and there. I feel it’s very important to help mitigate the disconnection whenever the context is children, even if they are home, to help them connect with their bodies. So being able to be embodied, to use dance, to use movement, not to let children spend too much time in front of the screen because that would be the easiest thing to do, but as they experience more disconnect with each other, we can encourage them at least to have more connections to their body, their emotion, their sensation, so whenever finally the time comes to meet each other they will be more aware of who they are and what are their boundaries, and they will be stronger, and this is the first thing. On the worst to expect, I’m a sociologist, so I’d been studying quite a lot some of the consequences and one of the worst things that we can expect in a generation deprived of this contact and this transformative way of being together is problems with sexuality. Big problems in being able to have normal relationships and ideas of sexuality are connected actually to being fully present in their body, with their spirit, with their emotions. There are already teens that have seen a lot of interest in cybersex, which is okay but is not so okay when we create a fantasy of the other person because the other person is also connected to a computer and they can create whatever avatar they want which means that the whole idea the sexuality is a way to connect, to merge, to become, you know, the one, you know, to merge the feminine and masculine, within us will be disappeared because we will be only projecting and creating by a computer our ideal partner on the other side.

Antje: That is an interesting aspect that I didn’t dare to think that far, probably also because may be a self-protection mechanism. Being a mother to a 3-year-old son, of course, there are sometimes concerns about how all the situations might affect the future of my child and other children, of course around the globe, and I think the aspect that you mentioned, is definitely something really important to consider and nevertheless what I thought for myself and what is something we tried to mitigate right now is the fear of each other. What I can observe now is when we are outside, this automatically stepping away from someone if someone crosses, for example, the sidewalk, or when there are too many people in the park in a place. It’s automatically to be set we have to stay away and be here. So, we tried to mitigate this fear of the other that can be created and always contextualize. And, this is one thing that I see so far, as one of some big concerns, and I think, especially in all learning environments, we have to be really careful and well aware about how we can then again create the necessity of proximity and allowing exactly also this varied experience together like having each other, touching each other, all these things. I think what is really there in front of us, it’s rethinking, in general, our learning spaces and seeing them first of all, how we can create different learning spaces, where we can make deeper experiences, not only touching or intellect but the emotions and our minds, deeper values and so on. I see that at the moment, there are limited learning environments, exactly making more holistic experience into breaking the different types of knowledge that we need. So eventually, especially being now aware of this physical distancing for such a long time, we can also consider in the future something about how to mitigate that and provide experiences that can bring us again closer on the different levels. That’s so far; they wanted to take too much time in one answer. I proposed some more points. Maybe some others want to comment?

Manta: I think that your point of view is very interesting because you mentioned what is digital interaction and the creation of an avatar of yourself and projection on others, and the other one, the connection with the body. And creating environments that are, let’s say, immersive that can somehow allow children, and people, in general, to experiment beyond themselves can be a great tool to announce creativity and to overcome the limits and to experiment. On the other side, the grounding and reconnection of the body can allow people and children to bring these characteristics and experiments made in a safe environment to overcome their fears. Also, when they meet in reality with others. So, creating a more superhero of you can help you play, it can be in different ways of experimenting your creativity beyond your limits in virtual places where you can do whatever you want. And then create through other dynamics the interaction within your family, within the circle of your friends, and the people around you, to test that part of what you created is in you, and you can also play in your real life with the same skills and same talents.

Giulia: I think what Manta is saying is interesting because it adds an aspect like it’s inevitable that we live with technology. That is what you’re saying?

Manta: Yes.

Giulia: So, because it is inevitable, maybe we can find a way that we can use it to become more and not less, to overcome fear and not separate us.

Manta: Yes, and of course, It can be easier to live in a virtual world or virtual environment and be whatever you want. And relive the pleasure of being in your body and enjoy your physical sensation, the happiness of a warm hug or an interaction of looking someone in the eye without the screen in the middle, should be presented and made real through experience and dynamics and constant reminder of how important it is.

Giulia: Thank you very much all for sharing. I liked the tone of the conversation because it taps into emotion and the body and presents reality. You did not dig into an academic debate about how transformative learning should be made but stated problems and maybe solutions to create value with what we have and with the constraints we are facing now. Do you want to add something? I didn’t want to interrupt your flow.

Antje: I was thinking of one important aspect that more and more I’m reflecting on by myself in these current times especially, what I can do to enhance transformative learning. And seeing like learning is an ongoing process for the whole life, so for me, but also being as an outside researcher, an educator, a mother, a family member, and a society member, the thing I wanted to say is the importance of self-care, and how important it is to take care of our mind. And I think this is probably a challenge. At least the adults now in positions of being, actually like, guides may be in schools, university, kinder gardens or whatever, really are confronted this big task of taking care of ourselves first in order we can then provide these other spaces that we are aiming at to provide these monolithic experiences more in a stimulating learning environment and so on. And, I think this has so much to also our mindset and I really feel now, after this one year of pandemic, big pressure on my mind and how much effort it takes me to take care actually of my mindset and my self-care especially because there is limited time for it and so many to be done at the same time and the work pressure is so high nevertheless, even though the conditions are more challenging to fulfil these requirements. So, this is what I find hard, I sometimes think even it is a challenge for me to put my values into practice in daily life, because of these constraints at the moment. And I think self-care is such an important aspect, so that anyone wanting to act as an educator at any level, it always starts with us. That’s again the message I learned from myself, even if I have reflected in and written and researched a lot of transformative learning, and it always starts with us and we have to make this transformative experience first for ourselves, and again for ourselves, and again for ourself, to be able to create this enriching experiences, or be able to create a learning environment for enriching experiences for children and students. That’s one aspect I wanted to add.

Giulia: Yeah, very important aspect. I would have hugged you if we were here in person, so feel free to accept my virtual hug. Thank you for cooping and stressing the importance of self-care. Thank you also Manta and Esperide for stating the important issues of the nowadays young generation. On this point, I would love to hear the opinion of Maria Garcia Alvarez, that is here with us, she’s coordinator of Value creators that is an educational concept developed by the Windesheim college in which Maria and her team create an environment where students and professionals network work together around complex social issues and weak problems related to sustainability. So, the value creators concept facilitates the transition from knowledge as a goal to knowledge as a tool, maybe Maria could put the sentence of the conversation from her experience.

Maria: Thank you Giulia, for becoming inspiring, and I can also feel this emotional connection in a conversation, for me, it was really interesting. I think unconsciously we all knew these, but to realize it, this social distancing imposed on us through the covid has almost forced the social distancing with ourselves, and this kind of need of reconnection with our bodies instead of ourselves is exciting for me. And then, dimension of technology, the same way we have separated nature from us, that is something from outside of us, I think we have separated knowingly from us. And I think it was fascinating too. Like Manta said, technology is an extension of ourselves. So, to use technology, to facilitate this process of social distancing, to reconnect to all levels or other levels. My question back to you is, how do we claim technology back, the ownership and the use of technology not to control us, scare us, to separate us but to empower us? How can we get the fear of technology away and claim that back? I’m curious to hear your thoughts back about that. And thank you for this wonderful conversation.

Giulia: Please feel free to jump in the conversation when you feel inspired.

Manta: I think it’s extremely interesting what is happening on the all blockchain movement and everything that is around it and the bigger and wider concept of localizing and decentralizing value, process, data storage, ownership of data and all this topic is really taking back the management the development of technology that is a service of the people and of someone who decides what you see, what you do, and what you can do. This might be the first step of the process where everybody can be part of a process of creation and not just the passive in getting what is produced by others. And these to be extremely interesting to see what will happen, in aspects like, virtual reality and everything that is connected to a more sensorial experience will propose to people because this can be an announcement of the creation of a digital connection and digital experience that can extend to what we can do or can be a gated cage of ourselves created by others.

Esperide: Yeah, it’s interesting because, you know, you were quoting McLuhan, and one of the interesting facets of his thought was really for me at least, is the idea when you add a new medium to society, you’re not just adding a medium where a new technology you’re completely changing the whole paradigm, the way the society and the people think and work and that also affects the actual development of the brain and we’ve seen this over the generations, how the new kids, the younger kids have different brains than ours already with different ways to interphase technology. So, it’s very interesting to see how we can really understand these processes and not just be passive to them, but take inheritance this transformation. Who we’ve become with technology, what do we want to become not waiting to see the change happen, but understanding now that it is happening, just like you know when the roman empire ended, they probably didn’t feel the end of its time the epoch, but I think we all feel here with the intellectual and cultural tools we have, we do feel that we are at the of a time, an epoch, so as we feel that we can also have the power of starting to look how that will look in the future and be active in that creation.

Giulia: Thank you so much, Esperide, Maria, and Manta for jumping into the topic. Also, because you open the way to the final question by Alp, a student of Politecnico di Torino who is listening to us, I ask Alp what feelings or doubts or what questions you would like to pause here.

Alp: First of all, thank you very much for all the talks. I feel like a stone age guy from a digital community, I can say. And first of all, like a younger community partner digital riot, I don’t know why the lack of fear I can say behind the digital community of the current situations but what I experienced until a year ago. I think the tool of education and technology became more like the infrastructure of a student. So, we used to see technology, the digital world, as a tool, but now, it has become more like an instrumental to us. I would like to hear what you think about technology becoming more like infrastructure, not a tool.

Giulia: Anyone wants to reply?

Antje: I would probably jump in quite spontaneously; thank you for the question. I guess in a certain way, I think all the technology and processes and especially how we communicate now is already becoming part of an infrastructure, I also think regardless of digitalization in schools and universities. It’s already in the process. The difficulty, at the moment, is that we see here the unequal access to use this kind of infrastructures and they are not equal yet in place, those without access are left before, are excluded. That is another dimension, but overall I would say yes, it’s not only technology, it’s not only a tool but can be seen as something else, maybe like making new roads, opening up for new things. One thing that I still had in mind, maybe it’s not directly answering your question. Still, I was reminded by several research pieces that exist on using, for example, virtual reality learning for fostering empathy and compassion so even being in a virtual learning environment, we can also use that to reflect on our attitudes and our values and our work views. We can enhance our empathy towards the world, be towards each other, towards nature, or even help us understand that everything is actually interconnected and we are part of nature. So, eventually, that also might be another road that can help us overcome the current distances. Yea, so far, I stopped here to give others also the chance to reply.

Giulia: Thank you so much Antje.

Manta: I think the accessibility topic on technology is really interesting not to create any digital device and access to this resource, and another topic is not only related to structures but also to education in the use of technology, probably now many children and young people use technology that their parents don’t understand completely, and this can be another structural aspect to evaluate and to support conscious option. The topic of the sense of compassion of wonder and empathy in the virtual world is extremely interesting because what you feel in a virtual environment that is something not connected to your body, can help you to make you feel more connected with others also in these environments, and maybe also to things into nature if you then let part of your time to exercise to experiment in a real environment. The topic of accessing structural tools is actually fundamental and we speak from a valley in northern Italy, with low and poor infrastructures, so perceive the importance of this.

Esperide: What I find fascinating, it is very more on the, you know, philosophical aspect or like the study of then what is reality, because now we’re saying virtual reality because it is a new thing, but the moment in which this will become part of our experience that probably will be a reality, just a different vibration of reality, so then we need to ask ourselves what is that defines reality for us. Is it the sensations of our body? Is it how we connect to those sensations and emotions? I think we are really at the threshold of something enormous here. The whole, you know, a new definition of the human being, the environment, and the different dimensions we can participate in fully, I mean in the end, what defines us in our relationships. And I suspect that being able to be present, self-care, which to me also translates into authenticity, all the ambiguities before that I really resonate with, will be very important. We will define ourselves more and more in our relationships with others. Because otherwise, you know, we won’t have the normal boundaries of reality, so how do we define ourselves if not in an exchange of values and emotions with others.

Giulia: That’s so much we domain in this work Esperide, thank you. Thank you so much. You are actually paving the way for the final 5 minutes of meditation that Valerie is kindly offers us. So, I may give the floor to Valerie for guiding us in this 5 minutes meditation on self-perception, I guess.

Valerie: Thank you very much for this very interesting dialogue. And I wanted to say that my part now is bringing back the body to this conservation, but as I could feel worlds were touching, people were touching bodies. And I would like to intensify what we are feeling now. And I would like to invite you formally to meditation using breathing. The breathing has very neath life ingredients and as communication. So, I invite you if you’re standing, you can sit down on a seat, or you can keep standing. And I invite you to feel your feet on the ground. Just feel how your feet are touching the ground. Just feel the ground. How is the ground where you’re standing, where you’re sitting? How much does this ground touch you, and how much do you touch this ground. And I invite you now to breathe fully. Breathe up through your chest as much as you can. And while you exhale, just let everything go. Drop the shoulders, drop the face, drop your legs. And just everything goes down on the body. On the feet, on the ground. And again, breathe in deeply, take in the breathing, and let it out as much as you can. So, each time you breathe in, give yourself this self-care you were talking about, this possibility of breathing fresh air and letting go of all this air, the old air, while you breathe out. Let’s keep some breathing, feeling your body, feeling yourself, feeling being your body and not only your mind. It starts with us even if the mind brings us to chatting, come back to the breathing, keep your feet on the ground, as we saw the photo, this brown nature touching. And I would love to add a little note, so each time you breathe in as you would breathe in, that would be all the words and everything of all the people within this space, this virtual space, and each time you breathe out as if you would just bring in everything of you in the same space. So, each time you breathe in, you let everything come into you, and each time you breathe out, you bring all of yourself into space. And keep breathing, letting in, and letting out. You might feel a sensation of connection much better than before. Or you might feel something else, which is also right. And feel your feet on the ground, soil. The same soil you are sharing in the shared space. And with the next breathing, you can open your eyes again if you have closed them. You can come back to this shared space. Give your attention to everybody else, and I would love to invite each of you to close this podcast with three words that come up to your mind of this experience of the whole podcast. So maybe Alp would you like to start?

Alp: Yes, I can. Thank you very much for this great speech that fulfilled my mind. I would say that social participation, self-expression, and I can say creativity in three words. Thank you very much.

Valerie: Thank you. Antje, would you like to continue?

Antje: Yes, thank you. My three words are positively surprised, feeling connected, and getting excited about what really is to come, thank you.

Valerie: Thank you Antje. Esperide and Manta I invite you both also to say your words.

Esperide: The three words that I think I will keep with me also from this conservation is for sure nature, authenticity, and evolution.

Manta: Mine are hope, connection, and renovation.

Valerie: Lovely, thank you very much.

Giulia: Okay! We can say we can close the first episode. Thank you very much.